Episode 81 Transcript

Banoo Behboodi: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Professional Services Pursuit, a podcast featuring expert advice and insights on the professional services industry. Thank you for joining me today. I'm Banoo, one of your co-hosts, and today, we're thrilled to have a group of remarkable guests joining us as we conclude our series on Gen Z in the workplace.

Just to recap, we started a three-episode series, and the first of those episodes, episode 72 if you're interested, was with a guest, Tessa, who shared her knowledge around Gen Z, their impact, expectations, and what you need to account for to be able to recruit and retain individuals. Then we had a session, also episode 76, with Meagan. Again, I would draw your attention to that one because it targeted not only Gen Z and the specificities of their needs, but also generations in general and considerations that we need to have within organizations as we try and tailor to generation-specific needs. So, I invite you to listen to those.

But now I've got three remarkable Gen Zers, if you will, and I'm going to pass it on to them in a second to actually introduce themselves. It's great because all of them started their careers either during Covid or post-Covid, so all the influences and impacts that Covid has had have formed some of their experiences and where they are today. We’ll also get into where they want to go and how they see that shaping out, and just get some feedback from them directly in terms of what they're looking for in their careers and what's going to be important for them.

Before we continue, there was a disclaimer I wanted to put at the beginning. Before I get to the rest of the questions, I think it's important that I mention the disclaimer, and that is that the opinion of our guests today is their opinion, and they by no means reflect their organizations. I wanted to make sure that the audience is clear on that. So with that, thank you, Niki, Gurgen, and Armita for making the time. I know you all are very busy. I know you're all from different parts of the world. That was by design. Just wanted to get a more diverse input. But with that, Niki, you’re one of ours in Kantata, so do you want to get started and introduce yourself please and tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey so far?

Niki Patel: Sure. Thanks, Banoo. Hi. My name is Niki Patel. I am 27 years old, based in California, and I am a technical consultant for Kantata. I have a background in industrial engineering and computer science, but now I'm working essentially in post-sales implementation for Kantata. After clients buy our software, I help them integrate it with all the other software they use and find solutions for how they can best utilize Kantata.

Banoo Behboodi: Was, Kantata your first job?

Niki Patel: Kantata was my first job right out of college. I've been working here for about four years, and I have loved it ever since.

Banoo Behboodi: I love it.. Gurgen, I’ll go to you next. If you could tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Gurgen Tadevosyan: Hello and thank you so much for having me here, Banoo. It’s such a pleasure to share this story and explore it together. I am Gurgen Tadevosyan, originally from Armenia, and for the past few years, I have been living between Switzerland and the Emirates. I work at the World Economic Forum where I’m driving our Reskilling Revolution Initiative focused on the future of work and skills that will help societies and individuals thrive through these big transformations that we are seeing. Prior to that, I was in strategy consulting, working with G20 economies on various strategies across human capital and then economic policy and cyber policy. I’m just super excited to be here and cover this important subject of the changing nature of the workplace and Gen Z entering and transforming it.

Banoo Behboodi: Fantastic. I think time zone-wise, we’ve just covered Pacific Time Zone with Niki at 8 a.m. when we’re recording. I think it’s around 5 p.m. for you, Gurgen, so appreciate it. It’s the end of the day for you as you’re joining us. For our audience, I know I’ve discussed my three daughters and part of my interest in doing this Gen Z series is based on my interactions and what I’ve seen happen with them. Armita is my daughter, and I’ve invited her on. Please, Armita, can you give the audience a little bit more background?

Armita Behboodi: Of course. Nice to meet you all, I’m Armita Behboodi, Banoo’s daughter. My professional journey may be a little bit different than Gurgen’s and Niki’s. Mostly, I’ve been working for about two and a half to three years now, with most of my work being within the United Nations as a consultant. I started in Bangkok with the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia Pacific, working in disaster risk reduction, consulting, report writing, a bit of data analysis, and convening. Later, I moved into the evaluation space, and now I’ve pivoted to the World Economic Forum, which brings a bit more of the professional services lens into my work, focusing on public-private partnerships to tackle big global issues, with my focus being on economic growth and transformation.

Banoo Behboodi: And you are located where?

Armita Behboodi: I'm currently based in Geneva. I moved from Bangkok back to the UK for my studies, then returned home before relocating to Geneva.

Banoo Behboodi: Perfect. Okay, so let's get started. Let's get the show on the road. Niki, we'll start with you. If you can share with the audience if you had a clear vision of your educational and career path from the start, and I know you said Kantata was your first job. How were you targeting where you would work first, and has it met your expectations? Are things playing out as you had planned?

Niki Patel: Yeah, it's a good question. I would say when I was in college, honestly, I didn't really know what I was going to do in the workforce. Some people have it figured out very early on when they're going into college and taking classes, knowing exactly what they want to do. For me, it was more a time of discovery. I knew I wanted to do something technical, or I knew I wanted to do something engineering-related. I didn't really know what that was. That's why in college I did start out in computer science. I then switched to industrial engineering, and even when I graduated, I realized I really didn't want to do anything in that field. But I still wanted to use my technical background. I realized I really wanted to be client-facing, working with other people and helping solve solutions. That's where I dialed down on post-sales or even pre-sales, just client-facing but also being able to use my technical background. That's where I thought it was a good fit. It was a good career path, and I've been enjoying it so far.

In terms of finding Kantata, finding a career at Kantata, it was a really tough job market in the sense that I was graduating at the peak of Covid. Not a lot of companies were looking to expand or necessarily hire people right out of college without a lot of experience. I feel like that's one difficulty that I had; I found all these opportunities that I was really interested in, but a lot of them wanted a lot of experience. It’s this back and forth of where I'm looking for jobs that require experience, but I don't really have any coming straight out of college. It was definitely a difficult time. I'd say things have definitely gotten better since, but that whole Covid scare really turned the job opportunities upside down in that sense.

I would say going back to the original question, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. Even to this day, I do love the career path that I'm on, but anything can happen. I don't know if this is what I'm going to be doing for the rest of my life. I would say I'm one of those who didn't exactly know what I wanted to do and have just been discovering what I like and don't like along the way.

Banoo Behboodi: I love it. You continue to be flexible in what life brings you. I know you were sharing with us that you’ve recently moved to San Francisco from Orange County. You’ve moved up north, so that’s part of the journey, I guess.

Niki Patel: Exactly, just going to where life takes me right now.

Banoo Behboodi: Just one more question. If I heard you correctly, you were finishing up college while Covid was happening, so things went online. Or had you already graduated when Covid started?

Niki Patel: I did have one semester that was online and not in class. I think Covid started in March of 2020. That last fall semester, I took online courses and then went straight to the workforce after that.

Banoo Behboodi: Yeah, I think everyone around that time frame faced the challenge of just figuring out Covid. As you said, you were transitioning from being a student to entering the workforce during such uncertain times. The rest of us had to deal with Covid, but you all were changing phases. You were moving from being a student to growing up in a work environment. It’s amazing. Congratulations on making it so far. That’s impressive.

Niki Patel: Thank you.

Banoo Behboodi: But, Gurgen, if you can answer the same question, I just wanted to understand when you were starting your educational path, did you have it all figured out, and how has it played out so far? How do you see yourself? Do you see yourself like Niki, wanting to be flexible with what the world brings your way?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: No, I mean, when I was starting off, I was 100% sure that I had it all figured out. I was very confident that I wanted to be a professor of political philosophy, and I had my eyes on a PhD. After my bachelor’s, I went straight to grad school, and I was sure that my life was destined for academia. I imagined that by the time I was 60, I would be a tenured professor with a white beard, teaching students political philosophy and the meaning of life.

But again, things happen in life unexpectedly, and then you change your trajectory, and you’re like, aha. I think that is one way in which we can describe our reality today in terms of the workforce and Gen Z in the workforce. There are all these big changes happening in the world, and we ride the tide with them. We transform, understand, and find ourselves through that stream as well.

For me, I had this image of what I wanted my life to look like. Once I started exploring, I realized that I had other interests as well and that the work was not as limited in scope as I had thought. I discovered that I could work in a certain area while still keeping my interest in political theory, political philosophy, and government. This combination gradually led me to more practical, hands-on studies than political philosophy.

Slowly, I moved toward combining studies with work. I actually started working much earlier. Since my first year at university, I was very keen on working in different places. I worked student jobs and outside university jobs, including roles in an art gallery and a library. These experiences prepared me for a particular career, providing me with initial experience that I could leverage and teaching me how to be at work. I learned how being at work differs from being in a classroom, how to interact with people, what relationships are like, what values are cherished, and what things are important.

All these experiences helped me understand how I want to shape my future and career. Flexibility is key, understanding that you might not have it all figured out from the beginning, or that what you have figured out might not necessarily be how things will go. You should be open to the possibility that your interests might change, your scope might change, and life might take you to unexpected places.

We are an increasingly global generation, more and more open to moving to different parts of the world for work. Being open to this has allowed me to keep an open eye and an open mind, taking me to exciting places. Looking to the future, I don’t see a reason why this should discontinue. As you grow older, responsibilities increase, and your attachment to locations and industries becomes more important. However, even as you narrow your focus to a certain area, keeping a creative touch and being open to trying new things should never be something to fear.

Banoo Behboodi: I love that. I’ll come back in a bit to the whole concept of creativity and how you view creativity. But I think this question I’d like to also ask of you, Armita.

Armita Behboodi: Yeah, of course. As you probably know, being my mom, I've always had my mind set on what I want to do and maybe a little bit too tunnel-visioned on what I wanted to do.

For example, early on in my undergraduate studies, when I knew I wanted to go into the field of general economics, specifically development economics, I had this tunnel vision of wanting to work for the UN. I aimed to work on economic policy with one of the UN agencies, and I approached my career with a linear vision of the steps I needed to take to get there.

However, I have learned that every step in my career so far has taught me that it isn't linear. There are so many bumps in the road, so many changes. To start moving towards where you need to go, you must be open to those bumps and embrace them.

For instance, my first "bump" was actually a pleasure. I was offered an internship in Bangkok at the UN, but in disaster risk reduction—nothing to do with my background. I wondered if I should take it, given that it was where I wanted to be, but not in a field where I had expertise. I decided to take it, embrace it, and see where it could take me.

I have applied this philosophy throughout my career so far. You can have your final goal set, which I have always had to some extent, but the path to getting there requires openness to changes. This approach has led me to my current position at the World Economic Forum in Geneva, not where I expected to be last year, let's say.

Banoo Behboodi: Yeah, perfect. I want to dive in a little bit more into the companies you're working for today. From a cultural value perspective, were those components you were looking at when you chose to work for those companies, and how is it working out in terms of cultural match values? I know no company is perfect. And again, you're trying to address multi-generational, multi-need culture as well as the business. It's much more complex than this. But I just wanted to get your perspectives on that. With that, I'm going to go to you, Gurgen, if that's okay. Were you even looking at the culture of the company, World Economic Forum, where you are working, and is it the right culture for you and how is that perspective?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: Absolutely. I think this is a very important question. In my experience, I've always looked at the values of an organization before engaging with them, whether it be for working or collaborating. For me, understanding the values that an organization holds is of utmost importance. But of course, it's important to first understand what these values mean. For me, values include principles guiding the organization, what it stands for, but also what is important for its employees. How do employees interact with each other, how do they work with each other, and what do they prioritize? What do they value in their cooperation and collaboration? And I've been lucky that I had opportunities, whether at my current organization or the one before, to engage with people, talk to people that work there to actually understand what type of people work there and whether I align with them in terms of the things that I value, the principles that are non-negotiable for me, and the ways I enjoy working and collaborating. Are these practices valued by others as well? The overall point would be that, yes, absolutely, it has been very important for me and it's something that I test and try to engage in as I continue my exploration of the organization.

Now looking at my current work at the World Economic Forum, I would say this was a clear example of an organization that aligns with my values. This includes both in terms of the big change that we want to see in the world. I wanted to work with an organization that has these causes, that has these goals of creating a positive change in the world. So in that perspective, I tried to really understand the work that the forum does and understand how my input can also contribute to that positive change in the world that I personally want to see and I want to be part of. That was the first part.

But then trying to also engage with the people that work here to understand, okay, the way they work and the way things value, the way they approach each other and the way they treat each other, is it something that really reflects my values as well? Whether it is diversity, myself, I come from a background that is rarely a majority in a global context. There are very few Armenians in the world and our culture is very particular. I always try to check if I will feel at home in an organization. Will I feel appreciated? Will I be seen? Will I be different but also valued in the same way as everyone else? And that was something I found and I felt through interacting with different people that work here.

Again, this is not an opportunity you will always have of meeting those people before joining, but I was lucky to actually be able to connect with the people and understand that, yes, these are people I would not only want to work with, but I would want to be friends with. That's why I felt that this is the right place for me.

I made that move when I moved from the corporate background to the more international organizations because I felt like this is a place I could belong. That's why the conclusion overall would be that, yes, very important for me, it is something that I've looked into and something that I have actively realized the benefit of, in terms of the career goals and career principles.

Banoo Behboodi : I love that. With this question, Niki, if that's okay, because you're very different in your career path, etc., I'd like to get your response to this question as well. Just a reminder, the question is, when you were choosing your jobs, who to go to work for, I know there were some challenges because it was within the tail end of Covid. There are challenges there in even finding a job. But how much did trying to understand the culture of the company and whether culturally the company was going to be a match, was a consideration? And then now that you've been working with Kantata for so many years, how important does it continue to be that you're aligned with the corporate culture and values today?

Niki Patel: I think it's definitely an interesting question. I think when I was job searching, culture is a big factor. But then during that time, we were moving to this online revolution, where we're working from home and cultures and work culture were seen as a completely different thing than they were a year ago. There's a big difference between even internships in the past, the culture in an actual office versus the online culture is and was a big difference in that sense. I would say when I was job searching, culture maybe wasn't a driving factor, but it's definitely a factor that's kept me around in that sense. So, currently, I think the biggest or most important thing that I love about Kantata is just the willingness of everyone to just be a team and help out. That's been the biggest thing. Whenever I have a question or need help, almost everyone I work with is willing to drop what they're doing and help out, and I try and do the same. If people come to me, I want them to feel comfortable coming to me, and I want to be able to help them out as much as possible. I think that team culture and just seeing everything as everyone helping each other and the willingness to help one another are really important reasons why I continue to work at Kantata and enjoy it so much.

Banoo Behboodi: Yeah, I love that. Guess what? I mean, we're generations apart. Well, not generations, maybe one generation apart. But the point is, we have commonality because I feel the same. I share in your sentiments with Kantata. Again, the flexibility is always awesome for me. But also, I agree with you. We have a very warm culture where we truly don't just say teamwork; we truly play and work as a team, supporting each other, so thank you for that feedback.

Let me move on to the next question. Gurgen, I'm coming back to you. This one is about looking into the future. As a Gen Zer, if you were consulting HR in different organizations, what would you say constitutes successful employee management and communication practices? If you had a magic wand and could define and shape what you believe to be the basics and elements of successful employee management and communication practices, what would they be?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: I think this is a very important question, especially given the major changes happening in the workplace and the culture changing after Covid. The way we work is not the same as it used to be five years ago.

I think there are many elements. Let me just quickly jot down a few of them that I consider to be important and then together we will discuss and try to figure out collectively what is that one thing that ties all this together because I myself am exploring this idea.

The first thing that comes to my mind is transparency. I think the importance of transparency and communication in our day and time is of utmost importance. We’re an increasingly interconnected generation. We like to make friends with our coworkers. We do connect with our coworkers that share similar values in terms of things that our generation values in terms of references we make at work or the way we approach work.

I think that transparency and leadership and communication is something that I've noticed to be extremely valued by my peers. They really look up to their leaders looking for that honesty, transparency, and informed decision-making where we feel like we are seen and the things that we care about are considered, and that communication is also followed to make sure that we feel like what we value is seen and considered by the leadership. I would say that transparency is one of those.

The second one, as I think, would be diversity-informed. I think we're a generation that is increasingly, as I said, global and diverse in the workplace as well. My generation and peers, I've noticed, are looking up to leadership that makes decisions informed by that diversity, whether it be background-wise, culturally, or in terms of just opinions. I think we're looking at leadership and management practices that are considerate of the differences between us and that really make an active effort to unlock those synergies among employees.

Another idea worth exploring is visionary leadership. As I mentioned, we are undergoing significant transformations. The pace of change is accelerating at an unprecedented rate. The technological advancements we have witnessed in the past decades may soon be dwarfed by similar changes occurring over just a few years. Therefore, visionary management and communication are essential. We need leaders who can direct us towards a clear, common goal, helping us navigate these rapid changes. These three points—transparency, diversity-informed leadership, and visionary management—are crucial, and we should collaboratively determine how they interconnect.

Banoo Behboodi: No, I love that. I think just to clarify on the last point, understanding the purpose behind it is what you're saying, being clear on the purpose behind it, which I love. Niki, do you have anything to add?

Niki Patel: Yeah, I think everything Gurgen said is super important. I think the main thing for me in a manager-employee relationship is just being comfortable, which I think leads back to that whole transparency thing. You never want to feel scared to ask something or maybe admit that you did something wrong. You want to be comfortable enough with your manager to be able to express that because nine out of ten times, if something has gone wrong, your manager has seen it before and they'll lead you in the right direction. Really building that relationship to be as transparent and comfortable as possible and never being afraid to tell them something right away is crucial. By having that relationship with your manager, you can get ahead of things, and if there are issues, most of the time, they'll know what to do in that sense.

Banoo Behboodi: Failure is part of growth. Regardless of the generation, I think we all believe that. It's how authentically an organization accepts that and invites that which will make that change happen or not. That's a great point. Armita, I don't know if you have anything else that you want to add.

Armita Behboodi: Maybe to take a stab at answering Gurgen’s question about the unifying aspect within some of the points he mentioned, I actually think it is the last one, which is that visionary thinking. The reason I say that is because if you are someone who has a vision in mind for your work and is led by that vision, you are first of all motivated and working based on that vision. Therefore, having open communication between your colleagues is welcomed because you want to be able to work towards that vision together, knowing that you are aligned on that vision. Any criticism or commentary that anyone would have, you know it’s towards that unified vision together, and that really leads all of your work. I think that vision is incredibly important, and it’s something I really look for in my workplace to make sure that my manager's vision for our work aligns with my overall vision for my work. If not, I think there can be a lot of miscommunication and misunderstandings regarding where you see your work going.

Banoo Behboodi: Perfect. I'm going to ask a question that I may not have prepared you for, so let me know if you're not comfortable answering it. I just wanted to address risk because I think that may be another generational difference, at least when I look at myself and hear all of you out there, is our capacity or willingness to take on risk and what really risk means for you in that sense. I mean risk in the context of stepping into the unknown and letting it take you where it does, and the risk and implications that has and how you feel about that risk. I'd be interested in your perspective.

Armita Behboodi: I have maybe always been a bit more of a risk-prone person. I am someone who believes that what you need to be clear on is your goal, what you want, and what your objective is with everything that you're doing. If you have that very clearly in mind, you will find a way, a solution, or a way around whatever life throws your way. Therefore, by embracing risk or the unknown or different opportunities that may feel uncomfortable, all you can do is learn because putting yourself in those uncomfortable positions helps you learn the most. I think those are the places where you can grow the most. That is what I have found in my career. I think having that in mind and always having the perspective of, okay, maybe this has provided XYZ downsides or risks, but there's always something to gain. I've tried to always maintain that mentality of focusing on what you can get out of every situation and therefore embracing every situation that comes your way.

Banoo Behboodi: I like that. Niki, I'd be interested in how you view risk. I know you've been with Kantata since the beginning of your career, but you've just moved to San Francisco. What's your perspective?

Niki Patel: I totally agree with Armita. I think the most you learn about yourself is when you're taking on these unknown challenges, whether it be in the workplace or just in life in general. This is because you get to know how you react to these new things that come your way. The more you do that, the more you become sure of what you do and don't like. So, I think anywhere in life, it's a great time to take risks. I know as you get older, you have more responsibilities, so I say that at least when you're our age and really, the only thing you have is yourself, and you don't have a family or that anchor, take as much risk as possible. Obviously, calculated risks. There are times and places where your conscience will know what the right risk is. But I'd say, for the most part, take as much risk as possible at our age.

Banoo Behboodi: Now is the time. I love it. Okay, perfect. Gurgen, for the next question, I think you'd be best suited to answer it just because, as you said, you've been working since you had the opportunity to work, which I love. But based on all our conversations and values, how have you seen the workplace evolve to tailor to your needs or not? I mean, maybe it hasn't. But I'm curious, are you seeing things move at the same pace as you said? Technology is advancing very quickly, and change is happening at a rate never seen before. But are you seeing that same speed or momentum in workplace culture, etc., making the environment comfortable for you?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: Absolutely. I think this is a great question because I would even dare to say that the change in the workplace is one of the key examples of that pace of shifts that we're observing. I think the changes that we have seen in the past few years, particularly within the workplace, have really embodied that accelerated pace. Whether it be in terms of the integration of technological tools, working remotely during the pandemic, or now the integration of AI and augmenting some of the capabilities that individuals have at work, the workplace is really embodying and taking in all that change. Dare I say, our generation seems to be an active agent of that change, really driving it, bringing it to work, implementing it, sharing it with others, and sometimes even managing it upwards by introducing our managers and leaders to novel tools and applications that could actually augment our collective work. So I would say, yes, I think the workplace is one where we are really applying that change and transformation.

Now, I would say if we really get to the cutting edge of the change, we also see some things shaping and taking form. For example, now it's the coming back to the office. I think one of the interesting aspects is the in-person interaction and in-person work and the importance of in-person work together and physical proximity actually being in the same room together. We saw during the pandemic how people were increasingly moving to work remotely. But recently I've observed that there is also an increasing interest in coming back to work, working together, and actually valuing those opportunities of collaborating in a physical environment.

Armita Behboodi: One aspect that I will add to what Gurgen said is that I think sometimes there's also this battle with when the workplace isn't moving fast enough to match the pace of how your life is transitioning outside of the workplace with all of these changes. I think our generation also has this frustration sometimes built up when you are experiencing that in a workplace that you feel like is not embracing that change the way that it could be. I think especially as a generation that is at the forefront of that change, you want to be able to push it, but I think there is a truth that it's not every work environment that does embrace that. I think I've been lucky, especially, I would say the World Economic Forum very much does, and some of my other employers did as well. But I think there's a reality that it's not always the case, and that can create this tension between someone in our generation and our workplace when it's not moving at the right pace.

Gurgen Tadevosyan: I think this is a very important point, and an aspect we should definitely mention is also the mental health and the importance of mental health at work. I think our generation has been a particular champion of that, really integrating it into the work culture and making sure it is not overlooked. As we move towards more flexible work, people's mental health should be at the forefront and at the center of the work culture we develop. This ties to the point of working in-person and in physical proximity. People have realized that meeting in person from time to time is helpful for mental health, providing an opportunity to come together and tackle challenges collectively in an in-person setting. Especially considering the many challenges in the world now, it is beneficial for us to convene and discuss these issues together in a physical environment.

Banoo Behboodi: It's interesting. I know I've had this conversation both personally among my friends and my daughters, and outside work, that with the whole remote work situation, we are compromising a skill set that comes through direct interaction, and the creativity that flows from it. I love the points you all are bringing up.

Now, you all will be the future leaders and managers. Just speaking to you all, it sounds very promising where you're headed. But I wanted to tackle the last question, which is how would you manage? From your standpoint or viewpoint where you are today and the management that you've experienced with your managers, how would you take corrective and directional points from that and adjust the way you would manage in the future? What does that look like? And maybe Niki, I'll start with you on that one.

Niki Patel: Yeah. It's a great question. I’m never sure how I'm going to manage until I get there, but I think the most important thing here is that every person in the workforce reacts to different management styles in their own ways. If you're managing, let's just say three people, these three people might react positively to some management styles and negatively to others.

I think it's really about getting to know who you're managing as much as you can and really trying to dial down how am I going to get the best out of this specific person? I think being able to be very flexible in management styles will be very key in the future, and I think right now as well. I think that just goes back to being as transparent as you can for that person that you're managing as well as building a comfortable and authentic enough relationship with that person so that they feel comfortable coming to you with whatever problems they have. Being able to identify those problems and them having the trust in you to be able to come to you with whatever they're facing and you guys tackling that together, I think is going to be very important in my times as a manager in the future hopefully.

Banoo Behboodi: Oh, I know it will happen. Thanks, Niki. Armirta, do you want to go next?

Armita Behboodi: I completely agree with what Niki said. I think flexibility and the ability to adapt to what the person you are managing needs from their manager are incredibly important. I think something else that I have very much valued and would love to bring to anyone in the future that I would be managing is twofold. One, for them to really feel that I am someone like a peer with whom we are learning together. Maybe I am the manager, but I learn from you and you learn from me. Through that understanding that we're building something together and both have value to gain from each other, you create this, I guess, mutual respect where they feel like what they have to bring is also contributing to it, and I think there's something to be said there.

Something that I have valued and would want to bring as well is to be able to sit down, understand what someone is looking to gain, who they are, and what their vision is. Like what Gurgen had mentioned earlier, what is their vision for their career and their work? Aligning on that vision, seeing where our visions line up, and trying to enable them to work towards that vision and help them in getting there, I think, would be something I value and want to bring to someone in the future.

Banoo Behboodi: Amazing. Gurgen, bring it back home for us. What’s your perspective?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: I really agree with everything that our friends mentioned. I also want to remind us of the bigger picture, which is that a lot of Gen Z are now approaching middle management roles. HR managers and talent managers who have that foresight are definitely thinking about the future of their organizations, considering how they will move forward and adapt their practices to accommodate an organization where most middle management roles will be occupied by individuals from Gen Z. These individuals are young but bring with them many skill sets, interests, and priorities that are widely shared among people from our generation.

In terms of what I think will become an interesting thing to observe in the workplace is the coaching. One thing I really valued and took away from my managers has been that proactive coaching, really an investment in people, because we increasingly realize that formal education or training alone is simply not enough. The demands at work now are very wide. The skills needed are very ample and deep, and the things we need to succeed are really advanced, so that on-the-job coaching and training are of absolute importance. I think that's one thing that Gen Z is looking for and is eager to give to those coming after us. Now I realize that I'm at work and we have a lot of interns, a lot of people who are just entering. I've noticed that one thing a lot of my peers really proactively do is share transparently their knowledge and approach and try to coach the newcomers in a way that would help them shape their own careers.

Banoo Behboodi: Gurgen, I wanted to follow up and ask another question. As you were looking to define your career and even today, what are some of the resources and tools that you were looking at, and where were you seeing gaps where you had hoped that there was more guidance and resources to help define and assist on what to do next and where to go?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: That's a great question, especially in terms of that career transition. I often think back to it, trying to understand what was that thing that helped me explore more. I would say the key factor was my friends at some point. It's a funny story. I just went to a ski camp and I was skiing with people over the winter for like seven, eight days back to back. I just made friends with a lot of people who had corporate jobs, and I just felt like we connected in a way. I really liked their pace, not just in terms of their work, but also in terms of their interactions. I really found that to be an exciting area of work that they were engaged in. I really liked the conversations they were having about work.

Also, an important factor was perhaps the colleagues they had. I realized that the people I was usually working with were much older than me, and at some point, I really wanted to work with people around my age. That interaction unleashed my interest, and I realized that maybe this was something I should give a shot. That's how I entered the corporate world. I found that my logical thinking and analytical skills, which I developed from studying philosophy, were valuable to them, leading to a productive synergy. That was the missing tool I was looking for. I wanted a faster pace of work, and through my friends, I realized I could find it in this area. The rest is history.

Banoo Behboodi: I love that because I know that even for my own career, networking has always been important. But I think it has a very different definition now in terms of LinkedIn and all the various social sites you're all on. I would have to think that those are instrumental in seeing what's out there and expanding the vision in some ways, and your network to be able to reach out and find out directly. People are much more open now, like, you reach out on LinkedIn and say, I'm interested in going to this university or taking this job. Can you meet with me and tell me how things are going?

Armita and Niki, I'm just curious how you think about this whole social media network. How important is networking to you and your career path, and what tools are available?

Armita Behboodi: I think about my career and how I got some of my opportunities. My first internship, for example, I don't know if I would have gotten it if I didn't network on LinkedIn beforehand to get my name visible. At the time, it wasn't actually for the purpose of a specific job. It was just to reach out to people in my field, gain an understanding, expand my network, and just learn what their experiences were. Sometimes you realize that when you open those relationships, they can be mutually beneficial. You learn from each other, and the doors that having a wider network can open are huge.

I think bringing social media into it, I don't know if this is the case for everyone, maybe it's the places I’ve worked, but I find social media has allowed me to maybe informalize certain work relationships that otherwise you maybe wouldn't stay in touch outside of a work atmosphere. Because maybe you're not the closest of friends, but it allows you to maintain this outside-of-work relationship as people and not just colleagues with certain people. That can create a bond that helps expand your network throughout time. Especially as our careers become not so much in just one location, as you're possibly having careers that are moving around and global, it allows you to stay connected with people that you otherwise maybe would have lost contact with. I think it's a very powerful tool for your career as it is for a lot of other things.

Banoo Behboodi: Perfect. Niki, anything to add on this topic?

Niki Patel: Yeah. I think that's a really good point Armita just brought up. Social media breaks that barrier in some ways. I think it’s really important to keep in touch with anyone that you've worked with in the past, whether it's checking in every so often or just keeping that relationship alive with past colleagues because you never know what the future holds. You never know how they'll be able to help you in the future or if they're looking for an opportunity, you already know what they're all about, and you are willing to help in that sense as well. I think it's very important to keep expanding your network, but also keeping in touch with past colleagues as well.

Banoo Behboodi: Thank you for that. I think I have a ton of other questions, but I want to be respectful of your time. With where you left off, Gurgen, I know that I usually ask a personal question either about a mentor or a suggested reading. In this case, I think it's very fitting to see if there is a mentor. I know you may not be prepared for this, so let me know if you're not, but a mentor that has had an impact on your life and what has made them effective as a mentor.

Niki Patel: In terms of a mentor, I have two. I do see my current manager as a mentor. She's been wonderful in being a manager in that sense. She helps me with anything that I need. We do share that same vision in terms of career path and looking forward, and she, on her end, is doing everything she can to put me in the right places in order to progress in my career. So, I do really appreciate her, and it's just been lovely working with her so far.

Then I would say one outside of work is probably my mother. She's been in the workforce all her life, and something really inspiring is her work ethic, which I think sometimes can be lost on our generation, especially. But just seeing how hard she works every single day really puts into perspective what I should be doing and is a great example of where I want to be in the future, and the kind of work that you have to put into it. There’s really no way around it. I think it's great to be able to experience that and look at that firsthand and realize that there are no real shortcuts here. I do see sometimes people in our generation are looking for the easy way out. But just being able to have mentors and realize that the work is there for you, you just have to put in the time, that's been great to experience so far.

Banoo Behboodi: It's great. I love that. Gurgen, do you have a mentor?

Gurgen Tadevosyan: Absolutely. I think, not just in terms of personal development, but studies have shown that people who have mentors, especially informal mentors, are much more successful, whether in their careers or personal lives.

I've always sought mentors, and I put it in plural because contexts are so different. You want to have people that you trust and people that will guide you across the different things that you do in the different lives that you live. One of my mentors, and this relates to the very beginning of our conversation, is from my world of political philosophy because as I drive and navigate my career and my life, I keep going back to those core questions of what is a virtuous life that I want to live.

I really benefit from the fact that I have a mentor from the world of political philosophy who can help me navigate those questions. One piece of guidance that I received from her that still stays with me today and that I always share with others is that when I make a decision and I dare to take the risk to make a move or a change, that doesn't mean that it's final. It doesn't mean that I will never be able to go back. It doesn't mean that this is the change that I will have to stick with for my entire life.

That has really enabled me to dare to try new things, to dare to be creative with my career, to dare to be creative with my life. That is advice that I would love to share with your audience: It is always important to bear in mind that nothing is a final commitment. Sometimes you can often easily go back, and you should dare to try new things and risk it. Try to put yourself in a new context.

Banoo Behboodi: That's great. Thank you. Armita, how about you?

Armita Behboodi: Well, Niki stole mine. I mean, I definitely have a few in my life. I definitely have people who were more in my career, one of my first bosses, who really helped me grow. I was just an intern in Bangkok in a position that I didn't feel like I was very qualified for, in an area that I wasn't as specialized in. But he really looked at me as someone who had value to give and helped embrace that. He always pushed me to see where I could add value, and I think that's something that I have really embraced throughout my career, and it's really supported me.

But I think my biggest mentor, though, and I will steal Niki's idea, is my mom. To this day, if either me or my sisters have any problems or questions, my mom is probably getting interrupted four times a day by one of us asking her for advice. But I think more importantly is seeing how, in a field that is not necessarily set up for success, I mean, to the level of success of my mom, an Iranian immigrant, you always tackle challenges. You always find a way. You don't let any barriers scare you, and that is something that I have learned to embrace in my career. It's something that's really helped shape my approach to my career and something I definitely gained from you, so one of my mentors, for sure.

Banoo Behboodi: I need to tell the audience, that was totally not prepared. I had actually instructed Armita to stay away from that, but thank you. I appreciate that.

Well, thank you both. I really appreciate it. I am excited to have people like you who are going to be defining our future. It is very exciting. Keep living life and taking risks. I am eager to see your journey. Thank you for making the time to be with us.

To our listeners, thank you again for tuning in. As always, if you have any questions or suggestions for topics, please feel free to reach out to us at kantata@podcast.com. We appreciate your feedback.

Brent Trimble: If you enjoyed this podcast, let us know by giving the show a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a comment. If you haven't already subscribed to the show, you could do so anywhere you get podcasts on any podcast app. To learn more about the power of Kantata’s purpose-built technology, go to kantata.com. Thanks again for listening.